A Discussion on Fluid Management Protocols with Rory Spiegel. #FOAMed, #FOAMcc, #POCUS

 

So Rory (@EMnerd) is in the process of building a fluid resus protocol for Shock-Trauma, and asked me if we could have a chat about it, which I feel very honored for – and had a brief impostor syndrome crisis – but it’s always great to chat with people who are really bright, really physiological and after the same goal, to make patients better. Always a pleasure to chat with Rory, so here it is.

I really can’t wait to see their protocol, because I think this is a huge and complex endeavor, but has to be done.  I will try to put pen to paper (probably really pixels to a screen but that doesn’t sound as good) and put what I try to do for fluid resus on a diagram of sorts.

Love to hear comments and questions.

 

cheers!

Philippe

 

 


Twittercase: Fouled urine and #POCUS discussion. #FOAMed, #FOAMcc, #FOAMer

So I admitted a patient to the ICU yesterday from the ED.  He’s an 80-something gentleman from a nursing home with an indwelling catheter, and presented with stupor, hypotension, fever, leukocytosis and clearly infected urine.  His labwork showed a lactate of 5.3, a double-normal creatinine and, after 3 liters or so of crystalloid, he was started on norpeinephrine and hence came to the ICU. His extremities were fairly warm, and his cerebral saturation was 62%.

Before seeing the POCUS info, however, consider a clearly septic patient with AKI and elevated lactate. He did get 3 liters of fluids, but i’ve seen these patients get more fluids, whether for hemodynamics, lactate, AKI or any combination of the aforementioned.

Below is the clip, a quick POCUS sequence going from IVC (with hepatic vein flows), subxiphoid cardiac views, both lung views.

So here, we see a plethoric and fixed IVC (sorry I didn’t include the short axis but it was round and full, so in this case the LAX is reliable) with biphasic hepatic flow. Cardiac views show normal ratios and a poor LV function. Chest views show bilateral effusions and consolidations.

So what did I do?

  1. stopped fluids (I do not believe in routine maintenance fluids any more than in maintenance antibiotics or vasopressors).
  2. gave lasix (given that he is on the flat part of FS curve, I was unconcerned with some diuresis decreasing his preload, vasopressors and lactate notwithstanding, and with the goal to decongest his kidneys, likely suffering from congestive insult on top of the septic one).
  3. did not try to chase his lactate with increasing cardiac output (lactate being a great alarm bell and prognosticator, but little else, and because he was worm and with a decent cerebral saturation, I did not feel that there was a major cardiogenic component to his shock).

So what happened?

This morning, after a negative balance of 1,500 cc in 24 hours, his levophed dose has dropped by half, his lactate is normal and his creatinine is decreasing. A decade ago, I would have chased down the last ounce of volume responsiveness with fluids, aggressively trying to drive down the lactate and creatinine, and maybe, 24 hours later, he would have developed “ARDS” because he was “so sick.”  😉

cheers

 

Philippe

 


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To POCUS or not to POCUS… No, that is NOT the question! #FOAMed, #FOAMus, #FOAMer

So a few weeks ago I got into some twitter debates after I – not uncharacteristically – stated that, in my opinion, practicing acute care today without using/learning POCUS  is unethical. Now I was hasty, and, in my wording did not exclude those docs who simply do not have access to the technology, and I apologize for that. For the rest, however, I totally stand by my words.

So there was a bunch of smart people who exhibited the monosynaptic reflex of asking for the evidence, the studies, or else brandishing some that showed that some aspect or other of POCUS is flawed, or some anecdote about misdiagnoses, bla, bla, bla…

Now this time, I’m going to start the discussion with the bottom line, in a sense, and leave the nitty gritty for later (which is actually the most important part, tho). But here it is:

Unless you think that the addition of ultrasonography cannot perform more accurate and rapid diagnoses than you can with your inspection/palpation/percussion/auscultation, you cannot rule against POCUS. 

Now if you actually believe that, the corollary would be to never ask for an echocardiogram, abdo-pelvic ultrasound, etc… Not too many takers. Thats what I thought.

What you can challenge, however, is the process of POCUS, meaning how do you get Dr. John Doe competent enough to make a call of pathology X (for the diagnostic aspect) and how do we clinically integrate and act on the POCUS findings, many of them being “new” from increased sensitivity, what do they mean, what does their evolution mean? Many good questions there.

That’s why I lament the entire debate around POCUS. These smart people should focus their neurons on helping us fine-tune POCUS instead.  POCUS is a huge, exploding field. I’m pretty POCUS-comfortable, but don’t ask me to start looking at bones and tendons and ligaments and a myriad of other applications. There’s not much in the body we can’t get some ultrasound into, so all those represent areas of additional information to be assessed.

The education process is also clearly in need. I’m on a panel of the Quebec College of Physicians whose mission is to put some parameters around POCUS. There’s no holding it back, it’s just about getting it going in the right direction.

It’s like anything else in medicine. We have no perfect tools, because we are working with a hypercomplex system with many variables.

And speed. Anyone interested can scan thru the POCUS cases on my blog, and what you see every time is the speed and accuracy that POCUS brings. Studies are hard, and complex. POCUS is not a single intervention, so measuring impact is difficult. Let’s say we have a septic patient with an obstructed kidney. POCUS will assess the hemodynamics, guide fluid resuscitation and inotrope use, but also find the probable source quickly, then perhaps make sure there is no gastric distension prior to intubation, confirm ETT and CVC placement, and more as the evolution goes. How do you make an RCT around that?  It is, however, a good idea to validate every aspect (which has essentially been done already, but certainly there is more to do).

Sadly, most of the naysayers, in my experience, are not echo-competent and likely don’t want to feel like med students all over again, learning a complex skill from scratch, and instead are crossing their fingers hoping that somehow, ultrasonography will be discredited… Yup, it’s not just a river in Egypt.

POCUS is a work in progress. It won’t go away. Hop on and give us a hand. Your patients will benefit.

 

cheers!

Philippe